1 The truth about Immortality and Eternity Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:46 pm
Fatal Dawn
Registered Member
We had a good debate about this in my forum but here's one of the things that I have problems accepting: Immortality/ Eternity. First of all this is spoken with the upmost respect for all religions and worldviews.
One of the features we give to -not only the Christian God but several other deities and gods of other religions is immortality. Merriam-Webster defines immortal as a state of everlasting existence. What I have trouble and always questions me is how can you attribute the concept of immortality to one being?
Using the Christian God as an example - okay God is immortal - cannot die. God is therefor alpha and the omega, and with him there is no end and there is no death. Therefor what we know as human beings to be concepts of death do not exist for immortal beings such as Gods.
Well what about age?
Every human being naturally ages , grows old, and dies. Therefor we can assume a being that is immortal is exempt from the aging process. Therefor why doesn't this apply to God(s).
That stereotypical image of an old man with a gray beard obviously cannot exist. From the moment you're born you grow old and die. Aging is part of the dying process - a being (?? - okay we can assume He[God] is very very very very old) cannot age without dying. If we can rationalize a being living this long, God would not assume the appearance of an elderly man in his late 80s with a gray beard,etc.
In fact God cannot assume the appearance of any human age. We age because it reaffirms that we are mortal.
So how about we humor that God is born, conceived somehow (in other words a life still being conceived) in some sort of suspended state. Imagine a fetus in a womb, can we say that the fetus is immortal? Technically it verges upon life and death - something not yet born.
Why is this so, because the moment something enters this world - enters life - it is destined to age and die. The only way to rid yourself of the most basic cause of death (aging process) is to not enter life in the first place. Really think about this.
What if we disagree. What if this theory is wrong? Well, lets assume God ages to a certain point and stops aging - to me this is impossible and unnatural. The aging process doesn't begin and just stop. That's like putting a ball on a downhill slope and expecting it to stop rolling halfway down. So I obviously rule out this possibility..
So what if God ages and ages ... and ages and keeps aging... but never dies. Not only is this impossible and unnatural, but what would God look like? A bag of dust? No offense intended, but you leave an object around for only a century and it antiques. Think about leaving that object around for millions, billions, trillions, quadrillions, quintillion, and (so on) of years? That object - what ever it may be (living or inanimate)- will look literally like dust. Aging is something that applies to everything. Both living things and non-living things will age.
I'm tempted to think that God is a spirit and is not subject to the human laws of nature. But then again the only thing we can definitely describe him as is a being - meaning he exists. What exists is subject to the laws of nature the same way every object and anything that exists is subjected. No object that has existed is completely immortal. Yeah I know people will say God makes his own rules, but it blows my mind how a being can defy the laws of nature and still exist within nature itself. If he separates himself from the laws of nature, he ceases to exist in nature. If he doesn't exist in nature where does he exist? And how does he interact with us humans who exist within nature?
So what if God is like a fetus suspended in time and space - existing outside the laws of nature, verging on life and death, never to be born. Never to age. Interesting thing to ponder. It is not a new theory, think about the species of jellyfish that reverts back to young cells after it reproduces therefor making itself immortal in a natural state (against aging that is)
Well am I saying that immortality doesn't exist?
Not completely so.
But think about the philosophical perspective as well. An infinite being like God could not promote justice of any important sort, cannot be benevolent to any significant degree, or exhibit courage of any kind that matters since life and death issues would not be at stake.
Meaning-conferring justice, benevolence and courage would not be possible if we were immortal, perhaps if we were not always aware that we could not die or if our indestructible souls could still be harmed by virtue of intense pain, frustrated ends, and repetitive lives. Someone who is immortal cannot (theoretically) center meaning behind anything, not even the prospects of life and death.
We as finite beings place "meaning" behind other finite things such as people, jobs, places, etc. Buddha once said that we as people who are impermanent attach to things which are impermanent. A being like God which is infinite cannot find meaning in things which are not infinite. Why would God attach himself to impermanent beings? From God's eyes just what reason would he place meaning into finite beings? Makes you wonder doesn't it?
According to the basic principle of the conservation of mass - nothing is ever created or destroyed. Nothing is ever destroyed not even in the process of being consumed by a black hole. Nothing amounts to nothing so it makes sense that great thinkers like Lucretius and Epicurus have argued these principles.
My argument is that immortality in existence is impossible - even the universe is not infinite as you may think. Singular objects like you or me or the planets or molecules which exist within the universe are immortal. No, everything must die - every object, being, etc. Could God be actually a product of the same principle? Maybe there are more than one God(s) the same way even the grandest of suns are said to burn out, fizzle and die only to be replaced by another star etc. Nothing produces nothing.
One person told me that if you're immortal everything is seemingly only a "dream," a "fleeting fancy". It is not real ... well at least not in the long run.
From the point of view of an immortal being nothing was or will have been created. Finite things should not apply to the infinite after all.
Therefore we can assume natural law does not apply to an immortal being like a god (as hard to believe as it may seem ).
Creation from nothing, defying conservation of mass, and all other affronts to the basic laws of nature and death would not really be much of an issue because it'll only be wrong for a split second ... relatively speaking.
This is all I have to say but yeah this is my rationalization of immortality. I'm not convinced with the absolute - things such as perfection, infinite, or immortality.
One of the features we give to -not only the Christian God but several other deities and gods of other religions is immortality. Merriam-Webster defines immortal as a state of everlasting existence. What I have trouble and always questions me is how can you attribute the concept of immortality to one being?
Using the Christian God as an example - okay God is immortal - cannot die. God is therefor alpha and the omega, and with him there is no end and there is no death. Therefor what we know as human beings to be concepts of death do not exist for immortal beings such as Gods.
Well what about age?
Every human being naturally ages , grows old, and dies. Therefor we can assume a being that is immortal is exempt from the aging process. Therefor why doesn't this apply to God(s).
That stereotypical image of an old man with a gray beard obviously cannot exist. From the moment you're born you grow old and die. Aging is part of the dying process - a being (?? - okay we can assume He[God] is very very very very old) cannot age without dying. If we can rationalize a being living this long, God would not assume the appearance of an elderly man in his late 80s with a gray beard,etc.
- Spoiler:
In fact God cannot assume the appearance of any human age. We age because it reaffirms that we are mortal.
So how about we humor that God is born, conceived somehow (in other words a life still being conceived) in some sort of suspended state. Imagine a fetus in a womb, can we say that the fetus is immortal? Technically it verges upon life and death - something not yet born.
Why is this so, because the moment something enters this world - enters life - it is destined to age and die. The only way to rid yourself of the most basic cause of death (aging process) is to not enter life in the first place. Really think about this.
What if we disagree. What if this theory is wrong? Well, lets assume God ages to a certain point and stops aging - to me this is impossible and unnatural. The aging process doesn't begin and just stop. That's like putting a ball on a downhill slope and expecting it to stop rolling halfway down. So I obviously rule out this possibility..
So what if God ages and ages ... and ages and keeps aging... but never dies. Not only is this impossible and unnatural, but what would God look like? A bag of dust? No offense intended, but you leave an object around for only a century and it antiques. Think about leaving that object around for millions, billions, trillions, quadrillions, quintillion, and (so on) of years? That object - what ever it may be (living or inanimate)- will look literally like dust. Aging is something that applies to everything. Both living things and non-living things will age.
I'm tempted to think that God is a spirit and is not subject to the human laws of nature. But then again the only thing we can definitely describe him as is a being - meaning he exists. What exists is subject to the laws of nature the same way every object and anything that exists is subjected. No object that has existed is completely immortal. Yeah I know people will say God makes his own rules, but it blows my mind how a being can defy the laws of nature and still exist within nature itself. If he separates himself from the laws of nature, he ceases to exist in nature. If he doesn't exist in nature where does he exist? And how does he interact with us humans who exist within nature?
So what if God is like a fetus suspended in time and space - existing outside the laws of nature, verging on life and death, never to be born. Never to age. Interesting thing to ponder. It is not a new theory, think about the species of jellyfish that reverts back to young cells after it reproduces therefor making itself immortal in a natural state (against aging that is)
Well am I saying that immortality doesn't exist?
Not completely so.
But think about the philosophical perspective as well. An infinite being like God could not promote justice of any important sort, cannot be benevolent to any significant degree, or exhibit courage of any kind that matters since life and death issues would not be at stake.
Meaning-conferring justice, benevolence and courage would not be possible if we were immortal, perhaps if we were not always aware that we could not die or if our indestructible souls could still be harmed by virtue of intense pain, frustrated ends, and repetitive lives. Someone who is immortal cannot (theoretically) center meaning behind anything, not even the prospects of life and death.
We as finite beings place "meaning" behind other finite things such as people, jobs, places, etc. Buddha once said that we as people who are impermanent attach to things which are impermanent. A being like God which is infinite cannot find meaning in things which are not infinite. Why would God attach himself to impermanent beings? From God's eyes just what reason would he place meaning into finite beings? Makes you wonder doesn't it?
According to the basic principle of the conservation of mass - nothing is ever created or destroyed. Nothing is ever destroyed not even in the process of being consumed by a black hole. Nothing amounts to nothing so it makes sense that great thinkers like Lucretius and Epicurus have argued these principles.
My argument is that immortality in existence is impossible - even the universe is not infinite as you may think. Singular objects like you or me or the planets or molecules which exist within the universe are immortal. No, everything must die - every object, being, etc. Could God be actually a product of the same principle? Maybe there are more than one God(s) the same way even the grandest of suns are said to burn out, fizzle and die only to be replaced by another star etc. Nothing produces nothing.
One person told me that if you're immortal everything is seemingly only a "dream," a "fleeting fancy". It is not real ... well at least not in the long run.
From the point of view of an immortal being nothing was or will have been created. Finite things should not apply to the infinite after all.
Therefore we can assume natural law does not apply to an immortal being like a god (as hard to believe as it may seem ).
Creation from nothing, defying conservation of mass, and all other affronts to the basic laws of nature and death would not really be much of an issue because it'll only be wrong for a split second ... relatively speaking.
This is all I have to say but yeah this is my rationalization of immortality. I'm not convinced with the absolute - things such as perfection, infinite, or immortality.